Chuck Freeman
(K=13616) - Comment Date 8/23/2005
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Mark: In my opinion after seeing nudes on this site and others, a political agenda seems tame UNLESS it promotes Violence and terrorism
Chuck
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Chuck Freeman
(K=13616) - Comment Date 8/23/2005
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Mark: Good question you asked. See an attachment ( I hope). This homemade airplane crashed . Pilot survived.
Chuck
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Crashed
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Mark Beltran
(K=32612) - Comment Date 8/23/2005
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It crashed? Well it wouldn't keep me from flying again!
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Ray Heath
(K=4559) - Comment Date 8/23/2005
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g'day Mark, art has always been used for propaganda
even the ancients used art to depict their power and ascendancy
of course context has a lot to do with how the message is interpreted
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Mark Beltran
(K=32612) - Comment Date 8/23/2005
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G'day Ray! Yes you're right. It's good for that. Once, a muralist named Diego Rivera once said "all art is propaganda." I always examine my own work if it is. But I try to stay away from infusing politics in my photographs.
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[[dead account]]
(K=6692) - Comment Date 9/1/2005
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If our current government can use it, why can't the people? I think these political images are great.
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 9/1/2005
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let's be fair, john. all governments have always used it. not just our current one.
tom
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Bad Site
(K=979) - Comment Date 9/3/2005
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 9/5/2005
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perfectly fine. however, singling out one trait that an administration shares with all others because you disagree with a different trait of said administration is unfair and illogical. i hate using that word: unfair. but you get my drift...
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 9/6/2005
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precisely my point, richard! "propaganda is all around us". if you hate bush, say you hate bush. accusing him of using propaganda is pointless.
tom
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Jon O'Brien
(K=11321) - Comment Date 9/9/2005
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yes, but is all propoganda art?
Jon
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Chad Simcox
(K=1845) - Comment Date 9/15/2005
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Most of my art (aside from photography) is politically/socially oriented. Its not art if you're not communicating an idea, why not make it a message worth saying. Remember, Ansel Adams photography was propaganda back in the day. Just because something is propaganda doesnt mean that its being used for a corrupt government's agenda.
Speaking of propaganda, here in the states there is a PSA series (for ready.gov I think) running with little kids asking what they do when the terrorist attack. I see this as our government's propaganda being used to keep the population in fear. Any thoughts?
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Mark Beltran
(K=32612) - Comment Date 10/10/2005
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Interesting; an idea, a concept. I try not to influence the viewer, but instead get his or her own personal interpretation out my photographs. Ansel's work to me was never political. I don't see it. His work could be used for the conservation effort, but I don't think that's what he intended the work for. He saw, he was moved, he sought to capture what he felt about the landscape. That's all.
Art has a way of getting into a person's psyche. That's why art is frequently used as propaganda.
I just have this kind of mistrust in political processes, and I examine myself periodically if I'm going there in any way. I understand it affects us, and that's why some of us are led to delve into it for our own good.
Art to me should strive to exist solely on its own. Not possible most of the time, but remember someone describing it this way: "Art for Art's Sake" (?) Yeah, that's the ticket.
As for the kids being interviewed about what they think if the terrorists attack, it depends on their age. I wouldn't want them to live in fear. They don't need that when they're young kids. They're going to hear and see more of that when they get older. Let them have their childhood. It's the adults' responsibility to keep them safe; the adults should shoulder that burden or worry and anxiety. Don't give it to the kids.
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Daniel S. Garcia
(K=13946) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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I feel that art in most every form will be used by governments. The people, grass root organizers ect to get their message across. I don't have a problem with the political postings.
As for John S and Richard's agreement of this statement;
"I can't stand American flag images anymore. I love my country, but I loathe what it represents in the 21st century."
It's your right to express that opinion, but my self as a foreign born US citizen, when I see our flag I get choked up with pride. I love this country, the people and the freedoms it gives me. I won?t join the fever or allow peer pressure of anti American, flag burning students and the politicians in other countries who can't take care of their own problems and look east, west, north or south to find a bad guy.
As long as I have lived in this country (24 years) the US and its people have come to the aid of others in the world. Some decisions may be questionable but the American people have always meant well and I'm proud to be one of them. So while you "loathe" I rejoice in the contribution this country has made in its history to spread democracy. I know that mistakes have been made and we need to learn from them but also allot of good has been accomplished.
This should ruffle some feather!
Daniel
P.S Here so you can "loathe" some more.
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Mark Beltran
(K=32612) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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Daniel, the U.S. flag represents all that's good about this country, so I know where you're coming from. As far as the flag representing the negative aspects of this society, it's only because they fly it too. The ones that loathe it burn it. They should step out of U.S. territory if they want to do that. This country still allows freedom of expression, which includes the right to create art. The remember the Communists and Nazis? Their artists were slaves to their respective political regimes. Were they free to create art? Those artists created propaganda against their own free will.
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Diabo
(K=2080) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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>"The ones that loathe it burn it. They should
>step out of U.S. territory if they want to do
>that. This country still allows freedom of
>expression, which includes the right to create
>art."
Freedom of expression includes the right to burn a flag to express your opinion of what it represents.
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Some more propagandart.
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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to all the flag burners here,
you sure do have a right to express yourself. however, i think you are not very good at communicating your thoughts. what are you saying by burning a flag? that you hate what it stands for? or that you hate the government that currently flies it? the flag stands for the principles of this country. it stands for that very right you so offhandedly use in order to make your so called 'art'. if you have an issue with the current administration, on the other hand, it would seem to me that an image of a burning bush would be a much more appropriate, direct and clear message. but no, you chose to burn a flag. what next hippie? sit down, go hungry and get arrested? it'll look great at your next greenpeace meeting.
i can't the words i'd like to use because usefilm will not allow the message through but i'm sure you get the drift. you were born here. under cover of that great flag. the minute you don't like something in the government you urinate all over it and set it on fire. hell, why not? you don't really know what you have till you lose it (or burn it down). i hope you all get cavity searched (deep & hard) next time you go through security at an airport.
and that is 'my' opinion. what a great country. i'm going out and buying me a bigger flag to fly out front.
tom
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Diabo
(K=2080) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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>tom rumland wrote:
>what next [1]hippie? (...) [2]you were born here. [3]under cover of that [4]great flag.
Four assumptions. All four of them wrong.
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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just following your example of spewing forth inaccurate assumptions.
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Diabo
(K=2080) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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Which inaccurate assumptions?
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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blaming the flag for your dissatisfaction with the administration. or did i misunderstand your image? if so, it proves my original point: 'the flag is not to blame and shouldn't be burned as a protest of the administration's actions'.
i forgot to mention in my previous reply, does that mean i made some valid assumptions? i.e. [1] arrested, and [2] greenpeace meeting?? ;^)
and btw, my message was addressed to 'flag burners'. you seem to be the exception that proves the rule. you say you were not born here. out of curiosity, are you a citizen?
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Daniel S. Garcia
(K=13946) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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Dai,
I love the image you have posted! It's true. With great freedom come some restrictions. I do believe that there are abuses by our current administration as their have been with others before it. Voter turn out is the only way to make any real change in this country. I believe that we concentrate too much on the president. What about our local and state officials?
But back to the original post regarding photographs in political propaganda. An image is worth a thousand words and so it will always be used. I think it should and let the people decide. I do believe that people are easily moved by images of children and there fore do not care for political use of children in their campaigns.
As for the flag! Bush did not create our flag! He did not commition someone to create it. In fact that was created over 200 years before he stepped into office. The flag belongs to the people and flag burners are ignorant protestors. If it's the administration you don't like then burn a picture!
Diablo! Is that like a Chupa Cabra? The flag represents me and "My fellow Americans"! Not a single person, group, or political party!
Ignoramus is ramped in the world. You may burn my flag at home or around the world but when things go bad you always come calling! I hate back seat drivers!
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Diabo
(K=2080) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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Hi tom,
The burning flag picture has nothing to do with what I think about the bunch of criminals that currently run the usa. Another wrong assumption, but art (including propagandart) is supposed to be enigmatic.
It is also supposed to provoke, and you're the living evidence that my overlay of a flag and some burning woods (you asked for a burning bush, didn't you :) passed that test with flying colors.
Dutch flag, american flag, north korean flag, brazilian flag, the little paper italian flags my local icecream outlet puts into the straciatella, it doesn't make any difference. The flag is there to illustrate the absurdity of a nationalistic herd mentality and going crazy over symbols like flags. If this was usesound instead of usefilm I would have used an mp3 of a national anthem.
Of course, given the geographical composition of usefilm members, an american flag is the most effective bait. You walked right into the trap.
I could have used a dutch flag (quite a few fellow dutchmen on usefilm), but since most dutch people don't give a damn about their flag (don't confuse 'flag' and 'country') it would have been way less effective.
Your assumption on 'arrested' was wrong too. The 'Greenpeace meeting' part is partially correct. When I was in elementary school we used to collect money for Greenpeace. That was before they turned into a commercial lobbying monstrosity. Back then they still did their rubber-boat-in-front-of-the-whales thing. Now that's propagandart!
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Daniel S. Garcia
(K=13946) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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Dai, I must say, you are one hell of a journalist!
"Some of you already know I am a journalist - for others you now now"
Throw a jab at the administration and at the same time call all of us a bunch of nuts that live in the USA! Now that?s objective journalism!
"leaves a lot to be desired from those nut cases now running the asylum."
I don't live in an asylum and if I do, then mine is bigger than your! Jajajajaja
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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diabo,
you said: 'Of course, given the geographical composition of usefilm members, an american flag is the most effective bait. You walked right into the trap.'
bait??? so you don't really belive in your message? are you bored? do you have nothing better to do than 'bait' people? a job? a useful hobby perhaps? do you feel better now that i took the bait? is this what you do to inflate your sense of worth?
perhaps the next time i'm bored i'll post disparraging photos of your mother. maybe i'll just put down your religion. no harm meant but just to see if you take the bait, of course. would that provoke you?
so, you made your point. you ousted the us government and it's evil! wow, what great guy. i'm shining up your medal as i type. you must feel pretty superior about now. who do you think you are? you think you are having an effect on the world? changing things for the better the diabo way? please. nobody cares what you think and your silly, unimaginative way of excercizing your 'freedom' will have no effect on reality. i could go around spewing my ideology (on a photography site no less) but to what end? will i convince you that i am right? probably not. just as you have not convinced me of anything. so what is your point? ah, yes. baiting and provocation. i forgot.
and it seems i was right about 1 thing tho: you are not an american citizen. and yet you live here. how convenient. again, who the eff are you to come round here flinging your excrement all over the place claiming your 'rights' and getting all high-and-mighty when someone doesn't agree with you. you can crap all over the dutch flag for all i care, but don't ask me to like it when you crap all over my flag. maybe if your people had more respect for their flag they wouldn't have handed it over so quickly to ze germans. yes, i too have a perfectly functional colon.
it may be just a 'symbol' to you but to me and many others it is much more than that. and while it is your right to go around saying what you please, it is my right to call you on it.
for the record, in your simplistic view (too many false assumptions to count) you might think we do but we don't confuse 'flag' and 'country'. flag is the ideal while country is the reality. what we defend when we stand up for the flag is the ideal. but perhaps you were too involved with collecting for greenpeace to notice.
maybe next time, instead of complaining you will go out and vote. that is if you actually have that right.
tom
note: no offense meant to the dutch people in general. if i have offended you, please take it up with diabo here. i'm sure he'll be more than happy to provide reparations for bringing you into this discussion.
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Diabo
(K=2080) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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>tom wrote:
>so you don't really belive in your message?
My message: no point believing in symbols like flags. Message illustrated with a piece of propagandart, the original topic of this discussion. Yes, I believe in that message. And I don't believe in flags. No matter what country they come from.
If people want to see other things in it (like my views on the current american administration) so much the better. Nothing wrong with multiple messages in a single picture.
>tom wrote:
>i could go around spewing my ideology (on a photography site no less) but to what end?
That's exactly what you are doing. Your personal opinion on what a flag symbolizes ("the flag stands for the principles of this country," "under cover of that great flag") is far from universal, yet you keep advocating it on an international photography forum, up to the point where you turn a discussion about a flag into a piece of personal mudslinging (tom wrote: "i hope you all get cavity searched (deep & hard) next time you go through security at an airport").
>tom wrote:
>but don't ask me to like it when you crap all
>over my flag
Did I ask you to like it? By the way, there's a difference between merging a picture of a flag and a couple of burning trees and crapping on a flag. But now that you brought it up in colorful language with references to functional colons, maybe I should launch photoshop and mix some more pictures?
>tom wrote:
>it may be just a 'symbol' to you but to me and many others it is much more than that.
Problem solved. Put a flag on your house, burn it, wear it as a t-shirt, print it on toilet paper, sing a national anthem under it, dance on it with muddy shoes, do whatever you want that fits your personal views. You post pictures of how you want to see a flag, and I post mine.
>tom wrote:
>"i was right about 1 thing tho:
>you are not an american citizen. and yet you
>live here"
Wrong again.
But I visit america occasionally. And americans visit me.
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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>>tom wrote:
>>i could go around spewing my ideology (on a photography site no less) but to what end?
>diabo wrote:
>That's exactly what you are doing.
nope. i am merely commenting on your ideology. i didn't post a burning flag after all.
>diabo wrote:
> But I visit america occasionally
and they let you in??
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Diabo
(K=2080) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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>tom wrote:i am merely commenting on your ideology. i didn't post a burning flag after all.
Maybe you should post a picture. This is a photography forum, so commenting with pictures seems like the right thing to do.
Dai posted some propagandart, I posted some propagandart.
My picture was in response to Dai Hunters picture and Mark Beltrans comment on flag burning: "Mark: They should step out of U.S. territory if they want to do that."
I don't agree with Marks point of view and because this is a PHOTOGRAPHY site I posted a PICTURE to illustrate my point.
>tom wrote: and they let you in??
Sometimes american universities (i.e american taxpayers, I guess that means you :) even pay me for it.
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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get off the PHOTOGRAPHY horse. you blew that one a long time ago when you admitted to using it as bait. oh no! lookee there! you caught one! ;^)
regarding taxes: touche. i don't control what they do with the money nor do i always agree with how they choose to use it. you are just another example of bad financial judgement. it doesn't surprise me that american universities, the bastions of leftist politics, would pay you to visit them. hmm, maybe if i burn a flag it'll put a stop to it. doh!
don't get confused dude. i'm defending the flag not the government.
btw, i just figured out what your deal is: http://www.usefilm.com/image/684047.html
it seems i was too kind when i assumed you were a jobless hippie. my sincere apologies to all the hippies out there.
btw, didn't your people tell you? well, i'll tell you. are you sitting down? this may be shocking to you but the experiment FAILED!! marx was an idiot. lennin was a bully and a murderer. and fidel... well, what can you say about fidel without crying with empathy for the cuban people. ask them how they like it. better yet, ask them if they would do it again. probably explains why so many of them are willing to 'swim' the 70 miles of open ocean to florida, don't you think?
what a joke! the idea that communism is a viable 'alternative' is beyond ignorant. when were you going to spring that one on us? ROFLMAO ;^)
tom
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Diabo
(K=2080) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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Where did you get the idea that I favor marxism? Just because I shoot a pic of a poster on a wall in Oxford? I have absolutely no desire to turn my or any other country into a communist state.
There are many types of bait to start a discussion. By dragging your personal views on communism, cuba, and fidel castro into a discussion about the relation between photography and propaganda you proved how effective pictures can be.
The pics of the poster and the protesters are about freedom of speech. That does not necessarily mean the photographer agrees with the views of who he takes pictures of. Your assumptions tripped you again.
I'll drink to that next time I visit the usa on a taxpayer-sponsored trip.
I don't see how american universities supposedly being leftist have anything to do with their willingness to pay me for visiting them. Politics are not much of an issue in the molecular biological sciences. Maybe if I would change jobs and do some stem cell research...
>it seems i was too kind when i assumed you were
>a jobless hippie. my sincere apologies to all
>the hippies out there.
Taking things personal again when you run out of arguments?
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Daniel S. Garcia
(K=13946) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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Diablo (Chupa Cabra), something, isn't it! Said; "I think about the bunch of criminals that currently run the usa." First USA is capitalized and second the American people put him in office and reelected him. The bleeding heart liberals have done nothing for the country in the past 40-50 years or so.
You have jump onto the ban wagon of anti American BS because your heard some Hollywood idiot say something. I love it when you people can always find a problem but never have a solution. It's sickening to think of how poorly you thing of the USA and yet have the liberty to enter and leave at will (and on taxpayers $$) when there are others who die swimming or crossing the deserts.
I ask my self how it is that people like you can have atrocities happen in your back yard practically and do nothing. The American people would love to sit back and not send their sons and daughters to foreign lands to die while other turn a chick unless they can get contracts or other forms of compensation to show a humanitarian side e.g. Yugoslavia. Amazing!!!! Crap on the flag and its people until you need their children to save you.
Is that taking it a little personal? Oh, that?s right, nothing happened. It was all made up so we can build bombs to fuel our economy! In Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other countries tons upon tons of bombs are being found and close to 90% were made in Europe! But look the other way. It put a euro in your pocket! Let me put it politely your all a bunch of @#$%!
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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>Where did you get the idea that I favor marxism? Just because I shoot a pic of a poster on a wall in Oxford? I have absolutely no desire to turn my or any other country into a communist state.
where did i get the idea? burning flags... marxist posters... anti-american government statements... i dunno, i must've made it up. i do know that i don't go around taking pictures of things i don't like and then proudly displaying them on the internet. and if you are not proud of it, why on earth would you post it? oh yeah, here it comes: 'it's journalism'. yet you chose that subject to document as your only example of journalism. to top it off, you placed it in 'humor', 'other', and 'street'. why not journalism if that is what it is?
i think i'll have al make a new category just for you: 'bait'
>There are many types of bait to start a discussion. By dragging your personal views on communism, cuba, and fidel castro into a discussion about the relation between photography and propaganda you proved how effective pictures can be.
effective? if you wanted my views all you had to do was ask. did you need to insult a whole nation in order start a discussion? how small is that? so what did your picture achieve? nothing. i'm still here and i still believe what i believed when i woke up this morning. your argument isn't very convincing so maybe you should work on your propaganda skills.
propaganda |?präp??gand?| noun 1 chiefly derogatory information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
i don't see anyone switching sides.
>The pics of the poster and the protesters are about freedom of speech. That does not necessarily mean the photographer agrees with the views of who he takes pictures of. Your assumptions tripped you again.
nice spin (see 2nd paragraph above). your general disposition and ideology tells me there is more to it than just that. go ahead and spin it again. it'll change nothing. hell, you don't even have the cojones to tell us your real name. why should i believe anything you say?
>I'll drink to that next time I visit the usa on a taxpayer-sponsored trip.
drink to what? me burning a flag? only yours, baby, only yours.
>I don't see how american universities supposedly being leftist have anything to do with their willingness to pay me for visiting them. Politics are not much of an issue in the molecular biological sciences. Maybe if I would change jobs and do some stem cell research...
it was a play on words. a joke at your expense. sorry, you missed it. it had nothing to do with what you do for a living.
>>it seems i was too kind when i assumed you were
>>a jobless hippie. my sincere apologies to all
>>the hippies out there.
>Taking things personal again when you run out of arguments?
i consider the flag personal. you made it so. am i out of arguments? nope, but then again, i wasn't trying to convince you. i was merely stating my opinion.
you don't believe in symbols like the flag? fine. don't. who cares? it's your right. your rights end where mine begin, tho. so don't go around stepping on other people's beliefs simply for your enjoyment or as a pretext to start discussions and expect civility in return.
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Daniel S. Garcia
(K=13946) - Comment Date 10/11/2005
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Well he won?t talk to me!!!!! Señor Diablo, take care. If it was me you were referring to making fun of your name then I can only say that you were assuming too much. El Diablo has many names and I like Chupa Cabra! It was not mention to offend. Now who is taking this a little too personal?
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 10/12/2005
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ok, i see it is pointless to try to communicate with you. i will try one last time:
a) i couldn't care less what your opinion of cuban culture is. it was not the point.
b) i did not assume it was journalism. just trying to rebuke the usual answer given by folks who shoot things like this. you speak/type english very well. surely you read it well, no? twisting what i said gets you nowhere.
c) i couldn't care less what your nickname is. who gave it to you or what you where wearing. my point again, in plain english: you failed to let us (usefilm) know your real name.
d) yeah, i take the flag personaly. my point (that you clearly missed or are deliberately misinterpreting) was that you should not go around insulting people in order to get a discussion started. i.e. if i wanted to start a discussion about religion, i wouldn't do so by posting a photograph of a crucifix in a toilet. get it? is that clear enough for you? or do i need to write it in dutch?
e) you have not proven any of my assumptions as incorrect. all i see is text from an unknown person.
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Diabo
(K=2080) - Comment Date 10/12/2005
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>tom wrote:
>if i wanted to start a discussion about religion, i wouldn't do so by posting a
>photograph of a crucifix in a toilet. get it? is that clear enough for you?
You may not post such a picture but other people may do so. The Satanic Verses and The Last Temptation Of Christ are seen by many as variations on the theme of crucifixes in a toilet. I really see no reason why everybody should follow your way. Clear enough for you?
The questions that started this thread were:
> Mark Beltran: "What do you think about the use of photography (or art in general) for the sake of a political
>agenda or stand? Does it go too far in your opinion?"
I gave my opinion (because of freedom of speech it doesn't go to far) and illustrated it with a picture. You may not like it, but it's perfectly on-topic, unlike some of the responses in this thread which have nothing to do with the issue of using photography to express or promote political views.
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 10/12/2005
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>You may not post such a picture but other people may do so. The Satanic Verses and The Last Temptation Of Christ are seen by many as variations on the theme of crucifixes in a toilet.
neither of those pieces where foisted upon me in a 'public' forum. you want to see/read them? you gotta pay for the pleasure. very different from your way.
>I really see no reason why everybody should follow your way. Clear enough for you?
you misunderstand, again. it is not 'my way'. it is simple 'common courtesy'. i remind you, this is a public forum. you put that crap up on all the wall for all to see like it or not. not quite the same as your trite example. still clear?
>The questions that started this thread were:
>> Mark Beltran: "What do you think about the use of photography (or art in general) for the sake of a political agenda or stand? Does it go too far in your opinion?"
>I gave my opinion (because of freedom of speech it doesn't go to far) and illustrated it with a picture. You may not like it, but it's perfectly on-topic, unlike some of the responses in this thread which have nothing to do with the issue of using photography to express or promote political views.
your first post on this thread said: 'Freedom of expression includes the right to burn a flag to express your opinion of what it represents'. now, which one of the questions where you answering with that statement? there is no mention of photography in your response. none at all. all i see is a mention of your right to burn flags.
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Diabo
(K=2080) - Comment Date 10/12/2005
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In a discussion called 'propagandart' you should expect to see pictures that fit the topic of discussion.
This thread is about propagandart, I posted an example and even labeled the picture 'propagandart.' Clearly shows my opinion on Marks question: "Does it go too far in your opinion?" No, it does't go too far in my opinion. Reason why it doesn't go too far: freedom of speech implies the right to show a picture like mine in public.
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tom rumland
(K=14874) - Comment Date 10/12/2005
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Daniel S. Garcia
(K=13946) - Comment Date 10/12/2005
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Then we'll just call in poor taste with no teal though or purposeful intention other than to offend!
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Jon Ferguson
(K=251) - Comment Date 10/12/2005
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Geez Guys - Now I AM confused. While you have been trying to convince each other about how right your viewpoint is, I've reviewed my photos at www.pbase.com/jpferguson and I'll be darned if I can find one politically oriented shot in the 3000+ images.
However, there is one shot of a Iris that looks like it is leaning to the Right.
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Jeroen Wenting
(K=25317) - Comment Date 10/13/2005
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OK, so that's what happens when the moderators step away for a few days.
Removed a lot of abusive commentary, such will not be tollerated towards anyone or any group here.
Thread closed.
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Kambiz K
(K=37420) - Comment Date 2/19/2006
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You could use anything for a tools. It depends what you would like to do with it?
The purpose of a pen is for writing, but then some times you could use it for defending yourself or scratch your back!!
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