(quote) Believers do think considering that most people in the world have some kind of faith. (/quote)
I never stated that believers don't think.
(quote) Why not be open to a world that we canīt quite comprehend instead of ridiculing it? (/quote)
Why not be open to questioning the own belief in fiction?
(quote) Religion has always and will always be a part of human life. (/quote)
It depends on whose life you are speaking about.
(quote) And yes, religion affect the world greatly because it means so much to people. (/quote) And because some few millions of people had/have to die for it, and because knowledge has been replaced by fiction, and because the highest institutions of religion use it to gain unimaginable power, and..., and,... and.
(quote) As long as it walks hand in hand with education and knowledge then it is a good thing. (/quote) It can only walk hand in hand by knowledge but only accepting that it might be wrong.
(quote) Take care my friend - we donīt agree upon this subject but nevertheless we are good photofriends because we respect each other. :-)Thatīs a lesson to learn for those who teach their children to hate other people because they have other beliefs (/quote)
I can only hope that, despite the fact that questioning religion has always been converted to a minefield by the believers themselves.
(quote) Youīre so obsessed by proof/validation... (/quote)
I can't remember telling that you are obsessed by belief.
(quote) that we canīt really get anywhere with this discussion. (/quote)
Why then the long answer?
(quote) That there are myths .... to oneīs soul. (/quote)
Yes, like for example the tales about batman and similar. Any fiction is recognized as fiction, unless of course it is the own fiction. Then, it is suddenly no more fiction but faith.
(quote) There has always and will always be .... It brings meaning. (/quote)
Cognition brings meaning. Not religion. Without cognition even belief is impossible.
(quote) Math is your "religion" that brings you joy. (/quote)
It has a main difference to religion, since it states and also proves it own imperfectness. Maths will not present itself as an ultimate truth, and will always be sincere enough to tell you "do not take me such absolutely", quite contrary to religion that states the own perfectness.
(quote) As long as people are free to believe what they want and are being tolerant and positive then I see no reason to attack them verbally. (/quote)
It is really strange that any open discussion that questions religious belief is automatically taken for a verbal attack against people. Though I didn't use any hard words against people themselves but against ideas, which is two different pair of socks.
Continuing on another message due to space limitations.......
Dear Nick Youīre so obsessed by proof/validation that we canīt really get anywhere with this discussion. That there are myths inthe Bible doesnīt make the non-fiction parts less historical. Furthermore itīs not of great importance how much can be proved. Itīs faith that counts here. The willingness to step out and believe in something that doesnīt seem rational, but still brings so mucg meaning to oneīs soul. There has always and will always be people who try to control people by means of religion, politics or something third. People who create hatred instead of tolerance. This we have to fight. Nevertheless most believers are happy with their faith. It brings meaning. Math is your "religion" that brings you joy. As long as people are free to believe what they want and are being tolerant and positive then I see no reason to attack them verbally. Believers do think considering that most people in the world have some kind of faith. Why not be open to a world that we canīt quite comprehend instead of ridiculing it? Religion has always and will always be a part of human life. And yes, religion affect the world greatly because it means so much to people. As long as it walks hand in hand with education and knowledge then it is a good thing. Take care my friend - we donīt agree upon this subject but nevertheless we are good photofriends because we respect each other. :-)Thatīs a lesson to learn for those who teach their children to hate other people because they have other beliefs. Annemette
A combination of fiction and non-fiction remains fiction, if we are not able to separate fiction from history. Or else it is like saying that James Bond is not fiction because he uses real existing laptops.
There is a big doubt of why Jesus died, and most history writers won't help at all to maintain the thesis of some "messianic mission".
I do question all selfmade gurus who used anything for propagating a belief that brought them power, glory, and yes, even money! And thus I have to question also exactly those gurus that helped create a religious culture in which I myself grew up!
The whole christianity did and still does affect the whole world, like any other religion/belief did and still does. We had whole cultures nullified in the name of that power that is based on belief without thinking, didn't we?
Youīre wrong when saying that the Bible as a whole is a drama. Itīs a combination of fiction and non-fiction. There is little doubt about Jesus and the way he died. The interpretation of who he was and what he meant for people is yet another thing. Christians believe that he was the light and hope from God and therefore itīs natural to use the cross as a symbol. It has nothing to do with facts, but faith. Donīt question faith in itself, question the selfmade gurus that try to rule,punish and affect people around the world in the name of religion.
So we get to the point, that a whole system of rules, laws, ethical dictates, social behavior, and similar, is simply based upon to symbols that don't possess any meaning by themselves. Based upon to nothing, one could also say. That doesn't have to be "bad" by itself - but we ought to be more aware of that fact. And I don't see that awareness, unfortunately. But perhaps I don't look carefully enough, who knows?
Anyway, let's have another example of what I want to express, a tragic example of our own history in Europe, which ended with millions of murderded people and destruction all over the place. Some self named guru with a mustache constructed the myths and all the symbols around some "history" of the "Übermensch" and "Untermensch". The myth of some kind of "Arier" who never existed on this planet. But everybody believed that without asking. We know the results, or did we forget them soon?
I'll try to quote you here, and since this site doesn't offer any possibility to do that in any other way, I simply put your text inside [quote][/quote] marks. Interesting how a picture gets to a source for all this exchange, isn't it?
[quote] We connect the cross with light because Christ died on the cross for us and thereby gave us light/hope. (Us=Christians and whoever believe this) [/quote]
This is not a historically proven fact. The bible is not history and especially not after the changes and changes of changes that it had over the centuries. It is some kind of "drama" written and re-written and re-re-written so many times, that you can't use it as a source of historical evidence.
[quote] Yes, we would probably use whatever he was killed with, Nick. You keep on claiming for logic in something that has to do with belief, but it doesnīt work that way. [/quote]
Hmmm, let's have an example for making it clear:
We could also believe that the egyptian Pharaos came out of their pyramids in the night and ate the food that the priests were putting for them in front of the pyramids. The priests were telling that, at least. And a whole civilisation believed that without any wish for a proof. Until Herodot just waited in front of the pyramids and saw that it was only rats that ate that food. That was a real fall of the God-Pharaos ;-) Between believing those priests or Herodot, what should one choose? (Real question, no rhetorics.)
I claim for awareness, not for plain disbelief out of logic. In the history of this planet there are unfortunately more false prophets and self named gurus than anything else. Despite this fact we continue to simply believe without asking. A healthy portion of doubt, and also self-doubt, is essential, I believe. Ooops, I just said that? ;-)
[quote] When it comes to symbols then we surround ourselves with symbols. Man has done that for thousands of years. We put meaning to them, certainly, but that doesnīt prevent us from being spiritual beings. [/quote]
Amen! It is always *we* that put any meaning onto the symbols. But I am questioning their "meaning" for themselves - without any human interpretation. The result is: No human, no meaning! And thus: The human is the measure of the meaning, not the symbol. It is not a matter of comprehending anything, since there is nothing per se to be comprehended at all. - (Continued in the next message, since messages here are of limited length.)
We connect the cross with light because Christ died on the cross for us and thereby gave us light/hope. (Us=Christians and whoever believe this) Yes, we would probably use whatever he was killed with, Nick. You keep on claiming for logic in something that has to do with belief, but it doesnīt work that way. When it comes to symbols then we surround ourselves with symbols. Man has done that for thousands of years. We put meaning to them, certainly, but that doesnīt prevent us from being spiritual beings. Those are just physical manifestations that we use to show the world what and who we are and a way to hold what is so hard to comprehend in our hands. Best wishes, Annemette
A very creative one, that offers so much for interpretation, which is much more important to me than simply depicting nice flowers. Arts don't live from simple representations.
So let's interpret, but I'll go some other way. (As so often ;-))
Why do we connect a simple usual symbol, the cross, with light? There is nothing special to a cross, just as there is nothing special to any other religious symbol. No logical connection to light. It is only a very long time under some specific tradition and much suggestive thinking, that enclothes any symbol with special properties. But these properties do not exist per se!
A very interesting question here: If the nice guy of Nazareth, that brought the message of love, had been executed, say with a flamethrower, would we then use that gun as a symbol for godly light?
Real spirituality can't have to do with symbols. If it does, it is very connected to material objects, which in themselves are only created out of the need to reflect the mental world on some "real existing thing".
The absurdity of a symbol is that it wouldn't symbolize anything, if there were no minds that connect it with something else.
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{K:127263} 11/17/2006
